Craig Canapari (00:00.046)
We're gonna do future Craig a favor for our thumbnail is Which is actually do a couple of poses because otherwise I've always screwed like going through to try to find thumbnails So this is gonna be like super super unnatural The lighting looks so weird doesn't it like that? This is with the glasses the target cannot have reflections or shadows

Okay.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (00:18.441)
I have some thumbnails.

What are we doing? No, I don't think it looks bad.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (00:29.826)
I think you look fine. I don't see any reflections or shadows. look like a Yale per- well that's bad. You look like a Yale professor. Yeah, a pipe. You need a pipe.

I do.

Craig Canapari (00:41.166)
Okay, yeah, no, if I pull a big gravity bong right here, Seth Rogan of pediatric pulmonology. well, true story, I had a mom once say to me, she's like, I thought your name was Dr. Cannabis.

I broke my pipe. God.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:03.694)
That would be cool. Yeah, well, I mean, my last name is Greenleaf, so people are always like, Greenleaf.

I was like, cool that it was, but you know,

Craig Canapari (01:09.784)
There it is.

Yeah, it must have gone down well at St. Paul's in the 90s, was gonna say 2000s, I don't know. So okay, let's strike, let's do, let's do a, let's do, we're gonna do three, we're gonna do three professional but smiling looks, okay? Here's one.

Sure did. 90s.

come on.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:25.772)
Striker pose.

You

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:33.39)
You

Try not to crack up. Okay, here's two.

Really?

Okay, here's the this is the money shot.

Craig Canapari (01:48.845)
Okay, got it. Perfect. Okay, no, no, no, let's seriously do one because it is a pain in the ass. It's like a pain in the ass for me to find one. Okay, just smile and act like we like it. Let's act like we like each other.

Good, we're great. Perfect.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (02:02.189)
So we should be like.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (02:06.926)
I do like you.

Okay, there. Just pretend. You don't have to pretend anymore. It's always what I say when I have teenagers in the office and they sit as far as possible from your parents and I'm like, sit next to your parents and pretend you like them. So.

I do like you. I'm not your kid. You don't have to say pretend.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (02:20.839)
yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (02:28.022)
and I'm sure that makes them laugh.

So what do you I think we can probably get two episodes on this, don't you?

Yeah, even if we made them shorter episodes.

Shorter is fine. I don't have a feel for people prefer longer or shorter.

I don't know either, honestly.

Craig Canapari (02:46.965)
So I guess we'll do an intro for each section. We can always cut out the second one, right?

Yeah, I mean, exactly. We can cut anything out that we don't want. And I think we should stop if we're babbling or if you hear me say something, have me say it again. I think you had me say something. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, likewise. It makes the editing so much better. So I'll do an intro for, and we'll do two intros. gonna have listener questions. This is gonna be episode 18. Do I have the numbering right? I think I do. I'm gonna double check, because that will be two.

I thought we were on 17.

So we're gonna do seven.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (03:32.723)
are you saying, so are you saying the.

Yeah, episode number. So we're do episode 17 and episode 18 today.

yeah, we can definitely do that because I don't have tons to talk about with my sleep routines.

Okay, so we'll trade back and forth for this. You ready? Okay, so here we go. Welcome back to the sleep edit where we try to help tired parents and children sleep better. I'm Dr. Craig Canapari.

Okay. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (04:08.418)
And I'm Arielle Greenleaf. And I'm Arielle Greenleaf. Sorry, I was froggy. I'm Arielle Greenleaf. And I'm Arielle Greenleaf.

So in this... Let's do it again. Do it again.

Craig Canapari (04:23.501)
It's a new, like a real Kathleen Turner energy you're bringing to it today. So we thought it would be maybe of interest to talk about our own personal sleep routines, the things that work, maybe things that haven't worked or our own personal struggles, because I think everybody is entitled to a good night of sleep. And also, I don't know about you, Arielle I have really struggled with sleep.

Craig Canapari (04:53.599)
in my life. And I don't know if that's why I end up doing what I do or not, but it's a factor.

Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (04:59.926)
Yeah, I am. My parents always say I didn't sleep through the night until I was four. So they think it's hilarious that I do what I do. But I think. And I mean, I have struggled on and off for my entire life and something I do know about myself is despite my struggles, I require a lot of sleep. So I have to do the right things to achieve that or I quite

literally feel awful and sick the next day, immediately.

Yeah, you know, I don't know if it has to do with having been a resident or not. I feel like I can tolerate a bad night of sleep reasonably well, though the studies would say that even if you think you're performing well after a bad night of sleep or an insufficient night of sleep, that you're truly not. But, you know, being a resident and a fellow for six years will at least teach you to like fake it if you have to.

after a bad night of sleep. You know, when I was a baby, was, I guess what in today's parlance would be called a high sleep needs baby. And my mother repeatedly took me to the pediatrician complaining that I was sleeping too much and saying there must be something wrong with me. Now the jury is still out and if there's something wrong with me or not. But I also feel like I struggled more when I was like,

Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (06:16.002)
Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (06:25.324)
Wow.

Craig Canapari (06:36.301)
Like elementary school. I very clearly remember Having sleep problems and I think some of it was because I've always been sensitive to caffeine and you know growing on the 70s and 80s we'd have coca-cola with dinner and I would always complain to my parents if I couldn't sleep that I had too much energy in my legs and I didn't realize I Didn't realize until I was studying for my sleep medicine boards about restless leg syndrome in kids

Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (06:42.232)
Mmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (06:50.21)
Sure.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (06:57.166)
Mmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (07:05.376)
I was just going to say, did you have restless leg?

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't have it that often, but if I have caffeine, I do. So it literally said in the textbook, children who have restless legs may complain they have too much energy in their legs. And I was like in a library, so I couldn't like exclaim, but I was like, well, yeah, makes sense.

Wow.

scream. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. I had sleep anxiety as a well it started when I was young. I still I probably still have it but you'll learn later that I fall asleep pretty easily because of

some aids, but you know, my daughter is sort of getting that now too, where she's having trouble falling asleep, but she's looking at the clock and then she's stressing out because she's like, my gosh, I have to wake up tomorrow at six 50. And, but I, know, she's definitely high sleep needs. She's a good, she's 11, but she still needs, you know, 10 hours of sleep or more. So, this is like a new phenomenon for her as she enters puberty. And I had the same problem.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (08:10.308)
In fact, I think my parents ended up taking the clock out of my room at one point because it almost made it worse that I was staring at the clock and working myself up even more.

Well, it definitely makes it worse. And actually the term of art for anxiety specifically about falling asleep is not really used as much anymore, but it was called psychophysiologic insomnia. So nowadays in the international classification of sleep disorders, third edition, TR edition, which came on a couple of years ago, all insomnia that has lasted for three months or more is lumped under chronic insomnia.

But psychophysiologic insomnia is the classical term for people who have a lot of anxiety about falling asleep. They are watching the clock. They are catastrophizing, like having thoughts like, if I have a bad night of sleep, I'm gonna fail my test tomorrow. My friends aren't gonna like me. I'm gonna fall down. The world's gonna end, like that sort of thinking.

Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (09:05.837)
Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (09:10.744)
Totally.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (09:19.466)
Yeah, yep.

And a lot of sort of insomnia treatment for teens and adults falls under the rubric of cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, which we've talked about before in the podcast.

Right. Yeah. Dr. Shelby is she, she does CBTI.

Yeah, Dr. Shelby Harris. And a lot of it is the behavior. Like when we say cognitive behavioral therapy, there's two parts to it. And a lot of it is the behavioral part. And that is like sleep restriction. It's not getting into bed until you're ready to fall asleep. It's shortening the time you are in bed. But the cognitive part is dealing with the thinking, that sort of thinking about sleep. Because the fact is, is everybody sleeps poorly sometimes. And the vast...

Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (10:05.655)
Sure.

The vast majority of us, kind of get up and we do our thing and it's fine. It's not like your best day ever, but you're also able to function reasonably.

Yeah.

Sure, push through.

So I would say that certainly if your daughter has sleep anxiety, like we're actually working with a CBTI provider or something like that, as an adolescence might be helpful.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (10:31.352)
Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (10:35.054)
It's gotten, was, we went through a little spell where it was like a couple of, or maybe a few weeks of it and then we worked through it. But she had two snow days in a row and I was working. So I think it was more the fact that she did not get her energy out during those two days. Cause we had, you know, mountains of snow outside.

And I think physical activity really plays a huge role for her as far as being able to fall asleep. And then the anxiety comes when she's unable to fall asleep quickly.

Sure, yeah. actually one of my colleagues, Lynelle Schneeberg, who sees children and adults for insomnia, she's a psychologist, in her book, which I'll link to in the show notes, one of the things she talks about for kids is a bedtime box, which is like activities that your child can have in their room that it's fine for them to use if they can't sleep. So it could be like,

Mmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (11:37.059)
Mm-hmm.

craft projects or sensory toys or books or what have you. And I kind of like that idea. makes it, it's like, sometimes if you can't sleep, it's like, well, what do I do? I'm trying to, you know.

Yeah. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (11:49.142)
Right. And I'm pretty sure Dr. Shelby Harris says, get up. Like, don't lay there for so long. Get up and then go back to bed when you're feeling more tired.

Yeah.

Craig Canapari (12:01.335)
Yeah, the term for that is stimulus control. And it's tricky as parents, right? Because like, you don't necessarily want your kid wandering the house. But like, you know, like

No, right, right. But if they had a bedtime box in their room or something, that's a different story, right? If they're contained to their room.

Like a preteen or teenager, if you have the room, getting them like a beanbag chair or something might be nice. Though, Lynelle I know that I talked to her about this and she's like, for stimulus control, you don't actually necessarily have to get out of bed, but like you can just, you can phase shift. You'd be like, okay, I'm not trying to sleep right now. I'm trying to, I'm just gonna read my book for a little.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (12:42.678)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

So let's talk about our sleep stuff, all the weird stuff that we do to try to get a good night of sleep.

I feel like yours is far more elaborate than mine. Although when we started, when I, when I looked at your list, I'm like, gosh, I feel like I don't do any of this or whatever. And then I started thinking about all the things that I require to get a good night's sleep.

sure. Absolutely. And I don't want my list to come off as too neurotic. Maybe it's a little bit neurotic. But it's, but it's also that as someone who's a sleep professional, I've tried a lot of different things because I'm like, I'm interested in these sorts of problems. And actually, let's just kind of jump around a little bit because you and I are different in this regard is do you use any sort of sleep tracking?

It's not.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (13:26.52)
Sure, yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (13:35.086)
Absolutely not. Well, I did. So I was. feel like.

Tell me more.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (13:42.478)
When I first went the first iteration of the Apple watch, I feel like actually it's even pre that was definitely the iPhone. There was an app that you could put next to your bed. It's it's claimed to be able to tell you what stage of sleep you were in and you know, the quality of your sleep. Now, this was 15 or how many iPhones come out? Yeah, probably 15 years ago, something. It was a long time ago. I don't know how accurate it was. And then I just stopped using it. And then.

When I got my Apple watch, I was like, let me give this a try. But I don't like wearing anything to bed. I don't like wearing my watch. The only ring I wear is my engagement ring. I don't feel comfortable when I have things on. So to me, I don't need the data to tell me whether I've had a good night's sleep. It's more about how do I feel in the morning.

Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. mean, I use, my primary trackers, I use an Oura ring. I've worn one for a couple of years. At least when they've done head-to-head comparisons, it seems to have the best sort of combination of technology and algorithm for sleep scoring. But the fact is, most sleep trackers, like including Fitbits, Apple Watches, et cetera, they're

Yeah.

Craig Canapari (15:11.949)
pretty good compared with clinical or research devices like actigraphs in terms of telling you when did you fall asleep, when did you wake up, how much time did you have. You know, as to whether or not, how accurate they are for slow wave sleep, REM sleep, et cetera, I think the jury's a little bit out, but they're really getting a lot better. I had a friend who had an Oura ring and she had to stop wearing it because she was

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (15:35.95)
Mmm.

Craig Canapari (15:41.899)
getting so anxious about it that you're like stop wearing it.

Yes. Yeah, I think I think originally that's why I stopped using it. You know, the watch or tracking. But I also. So for for my friends that track or have the Oura ring or whatever, it's so interesting to me because there's no education around what what should your sleep look like. So they see a very small percentage of deep sleep and they think that that's a problem.

But really, if you look at how much deep sleep a normal person actually gets, it's not the whole night of sleep is not deep sleep. there needs to, yeah, exactly. It's not even the majority of the night. And so I think it unnecessarily adds worry to people because there's no like, here's what's normal. It's the same thing as the baby monitors.

Yeah, it's 20 % of the night.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (16:36.354)
that show every single movement and make it seem as though the child is awake when they're actually asleep.

I would say that Oura's built-in education seems pretty decent to me. know, so this phenomenon of your sleep getting worse when you track it is called orthosomnia. And it was Dr. Kelly Barron who coined this. I don't remember what institution she's at. Our equivalent in pediatrics is the parents who come in with healthy children and are worried about their, their child sleep tracker show them. But I, I,

Yeah. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (17:06.478)
Mm-hmm.

Craig Canapari (17:10.605)
I find it interesting for trends and actually I was hoping to actually download some of my data and it's not good compared with something like the WootBand. The WootBand you can be like, you can tag it with different stuff and it'll tell you your sleep is better or worse if you did this. Oura doesn't really do that. But I'm hoping, I think I can download my data and play around with this with a chatbot and sort of see if I can understand.

Yeah, sure.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (17:28.118)
wow.

Craig Canapari (17:38.571)
My impression has been for some of other things that I do, it's really helpful, but I'd love to actually have some hard numbers for it. But I'd say for anybody, and I've had friends come to me with their devices and like, what do I do with this? And I think they're really useful for trends. Like, have you changed something and it's making your sleep better or worse over time? And I can tell you, the ordering is, it's finished. So the Apple watch is like, it's like American. It's like, your sleep was great, good job.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (17:51.926)
Yeah. Sure.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (17:58.146)
Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (18:04.792)
Yeah.

And the Oura Ring is like, your sleep was kind of crappy. But, but sometimes when I sometimes I felt like I had a bad night of sleep in the ordering says it's fine and actually makes me feel better. And there have been research studies that actually I should find one for the show notes. Well, it has shown that with dummy trackers

Yeah, right. It's realistic.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (18:19.33)
Says it's fine.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (18:26.418)
that's really interesting.

Craig Canapari (18:32.109)
what the tracker tells you the next day is how you feel regardless of how your night of sleep was. So if the tracker says your sleep was good, you feel better the next day even if it was crap and vice versa. So we're all like sort of a little bit suggestible in that domain. So, okay, let's talk about physical stuff. Let's talk about the sleep environment. What are your must haves?

Wow.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (18:48.59)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (19:01.762)
Yeah, so the room has to be cold. I just I cannot sleep in. I'm a hot sleeper even in the dead of winter. And so many years ago at this point, I've been in my house almost eight years and we turned the. The because it is four season porch because it has heat, had heat in it. We turned it into our bedroom and so.

What's the temperature there?

you know, oh, probably in the winter right now, like 55 degrees. Yeah. And then, you know.

my God, that's amazing.

In the summertime, what do you keep the temperature at?

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (19:45.654)
as cold as possible. I'm that that is a problem. So we ended up, so we're about to put in a new HVAC system, but, we go to the guest room if it's too hot and turn the air conditioning onto 61 or whatever it is, because it's just, yes.

61? Are you a millionaire?

I mean, it's just an...

Oh my God, Arielle , you are living my dream life because if it were up to me, it would be cold enough in my bedroom for me to see my breath. And I used to keep it 59. That was a hard deal breaker for my wife. So with compromise is 62. And in the summertime, I keep it at 68. And I feel like if I do it lower when it's really hot, it just runs the line.

Yeah, I mean it practically is at times.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (20:20.216)
that's a good one. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (20:25.966)
Mmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (20:31.298)
Ugh.

Yeah... Yeah.

I have totally, I totally want one of those 8 Sleep Pods that will let you regulate the temperature of your bed and customize it. But they are very expensive and you have to pay a monthly fee. And I'm like, either charge me a lot upfront or charge me a monthly fee. can have

Yeah. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (20:52.126)
gosh.

Yeah, not both. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I go to a hotel room, the thermostat goes to as low as I can get it. Always. Even in the winter time. Yeah. Yeah. So it has to be it definitely has to be cold.

immediately.

Craig Canapari (21:09.611)
Eight Sleep, if you're listening, send us your product. We'll review it for tens of listeners.

Yeah, we're happy to try it out.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (21:19.614)
Yes, hey, we have more than that, come on. And we are grateful for all of them. stop. We're very popular, Craig.

20s of listeners.

Craig Canapari (21:31.735)
So, okay, sorry, go on.

are we talking about?

Your sleep environment gets cold in there. What else?

It's cold in there. I like it really, really, really dark. My room isn't entirely that dark right now, but working on that, it's under construction. once all the windows are done, we'll have the blackouts in. But I want it dark.

or the holes you've knocked in the wall to let the extra cold in like they're just like the light in the morning.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (22:01.396)
Yeah, exactly. Actually, no, we we we made the windows smaller. But I like it dark. If I could, I would use white noise or a fan always. But well, and or a fan. No, no. Well, both together, probably white noise and a fan. But my fiance does not like the white noise. It grates on him. So.

That is not a thing. And then he also gets cold. So I can't have the fan on because he gets chilly. He's fine with the room being cold. But if I have the fan on, it's just too much. I need a dark, I need like a baby. I need it dark, cool and quiet. Yeah. That ideal, a cold cave.

cold cave.

Craig Canapari (22:52.181)
Yeah, no, I'm here for that. I would run the fan too, if it were allowed. And I do in the summertime. So I tell you, one thing that I feel like has changed my life in the last four or five years is starting to sleep with a sleep mask. For me, honestly, I've always liked sleeping with the covers over my head. And I make like a little porthole to breathe through. And...

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (23:14.848)
interesting.

Craig Canapari (23:20.991)
So I like that sensation of pressure over my eyes. I just really now I'm like, I have to sleep with my sleep mask and I found a cheap one that I like on Amazon. And my wife got me a weighted one. I tried another expensive one from another company that sent me one. And I just like the a nicely padded one that fits well. And I just order them three or four at a time in Amazon because the elastic stretches out for a while.

and that would make me nuts.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (23:44.322)
Basic, yep.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (23:49.73)
goes, yeah, to me that would never work again because I can't deal with anything on me when I'm sleeping. like watches, anything on my head, that wouldn't work for me.

So you said you're a belly sleeper, I think.

I am, yeah, I'm a stomach sleeper, so that requires a very flat pillow. And most hotels don't have super flat pillows, I will tell you that right now. So I travel a lot with my pillow. Otherwise, I'm stuck with a neck ache.

Well, mean, it's the skinny, the skinny pillow just like, you know, it's like a towel, just shove it right in your.

Yeah, it's so bad. But the pillow thing, older I get is crucial.

Craig Canapari (24:39.485)
I have a very, I have like a sleep number pillow that is super wide, cause I'm a side sleeper and I want my neck neutral. And I gotta tell you something on our roadmap is I feel like my biggest mistake when we moved in this house is we did not get a king size bed.

Mmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (24:57.744)
yes, I like a king-size bed. For sure.

Yeah, hold on for just one second. Gina's just walking in the house.

Yeah, your phone is also wobbling a little bit when you, it's been wobbling a little bit. Yeah.

It's what?

Craig Canapari (25:10.775)
I'm gonna stop touching.

Yeah, no, it's not a shock mark. That makes sense. So, so yeah, a king size bed. we kind of figured out where our bed goes in our bedroom. We couldn't both have a bedside table and nobody wanted to cede the bedside table. And now I'm like, I will give it up because I would really like what I'd really like to do with actually is this. I think it's a Scandinavian thing where you have separate sheets on both sides.

Mm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (25:42.654)
Yeah, I have heard about this. I definitely have. It's definitely somewhere in Europe. It might be Scandinavian. Yeah.

Well, something that really, I also have taken to sleeping with a weighted blanket, which I was initially a skeptic of, but I like a lot. And I like the one from Bearaby because it is like a giant heavy thing with holes in it. So it doesn't make you a hotter at all. And in the summer now, I just sleep on top of the covers with that. But obviously it's not great for my wife because then I'm on top of the covers and it's hard for her to move the covers. But yeah, I,

Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (26:07.246)
yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (26:17.088)
Yeah. Yeah.

summertime, wintertime, I really like it. It's great. like, yeah, it's like, it looks like it's made of this really huge pieces of yarn. maybe for YouTube, I'll drop a picture in, but it's great. And you know what, I got it for my kid and then we had one for my father-in-law, but he didn't like it. So I took that one and first night I started it, I'm like, I don't know, not for me. And then I tried it again and I think it's.

Interesting, I'd have to check that out.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (26:32.718)
Hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (26:36.76)
Cool.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (26:52.376)
Great.

And I'd say the other thing that I really like, and it's just died, is a light up alarm clock.

yeah, okay.

One would argue that if I have a sleep mask in, what's the point of the light? I think it's the sleep mask does tend to move during the night. So it's not like it's perfectly keeping all the light out. And I do feel like, especially in the winter time, it's helpful. So we have the one from Phillips that was recommended by the Wirecutter I bought it in 2017 and it's just, it's about eight years old. So now it's just sort of the light'll go on.

You

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (27:10.616)
Sure.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (27:17.506)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (27:28.768)
It's getting, yeah.

and the light will go off and the alarm will go on and it'll make bunch of clicking noises. So I think it brightened it up.

I know a lot of people talk about the Hatch version. have one for, you know, like they, cause they have adult products now as well. And I've heard that that people like that one and it has that light up thing. I, you know, it's funny that you say that because it is so much harder to wake up when it's dark out.

I am a big fan and my friends down the street have the Hatch, they really like it. I'm a little bit leery because it is a subscription project, product. I believe it has a subscription associated with it. you know, I'm like, I'd rather just buy a thing once Although Hatch, if you want to sponsor the show, you know, we'll give it a try.

I did not know that.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (28:14.816)
Yeah. Get a product that yeah, right.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (28:22.401)
Hahaha

You know, I worked for Hatch a long time ago. I did. They, you know, they now have sleep consultants again. They're rolling something out, but I worked, they, tried back in, I don't know, was 2016, 2017, 2018. I worked up for them for a while. Yeah.

You did?

Craig Canapari (28:45.205)
I did not realize they were around that long.

Yeah, they've been around a while.

and I said the one other device which I've had for a couple of years, and I just started using it this winter again, are AYO light therapy glasses. These are actually quite cool. I met the founder. He contacted me online when these came out, so he sent me a pair, and I met him again at the sleep meeting this past year. This is a very streamlined product, and it's

Hmm.

Craig Canapari (29:18.913)
doesn't use UV light, but it uses close to UV light. So it gives you a pretty good signal. the classes are low profile and they give you a 10 minute dose in the morning. So it's easy enough when you're getting your coffee or stuff, just throw these on. I mean, look, your kids are gonna make fun of you, right? Like that's just how it goes. But I feel like they've, when I wear them, I think it helps me wake up more in the morning.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Craig Canapari (29:48.045)
And certainly like for the fancy term we'd say is circadian entrainment, like synchronizing your body clock. Early morning light does seem to help you with your morning cortisol rise. often cortisol kind of gets a bad rap, right? It's a stress hormone. The fact is your cortisol cycling is one of your sleep signals at night. So your cortisol goes down in the evening.

Interesting. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (29:56.385)
Mmm, sure.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (30:03.235)
Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (30:15.895)
Yes.

and arises in the morning. So what coming up is a normal physiologic response to wakefulness and early morning light exposure, which Andrew Huberman has talked about quite a bit on his podcast, really, Kim, it's a great circadian signal. It can have a lot of benefits. The fact is, if you don't live in California, much of the year, it's hard to be outside in the morning. Like right now, it's like one degree in the morning and there's no sun anyway. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah, right.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (30:42.21)
Yeah.

But it's also dark. Yeah.

So, you know, I think especially if you're prone to seasonal affective disorder and have trouble getting up in the morning, some sort of lighted product in the morning might be helpful. So let's talk about routines. What's your routine at night?

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (31:08.413)
It's funny because it's shifted so much because now my kid goes to bed so much later and I'm like ready for her to go to sleep because I want a little bit of time before she goes to sleep before I go to bed, but that's just like it's I feel like that's gonna be gone very soon. No, not yet, but I can't

But she go to bed later than you yet.

Craig Canapari (31:29.069)
It's like you get older, your bedtime creeps earlier, your kid gets older, your bedtime creeps later. We've crossed that point in my household. Though I do kind of stay up to make sure my younger one who's 15 gets in the bed. And actually he's been, lately he's been really good about it. Like he'll just put himself to bed. I used to feel like I had to kind of be like, okay.

Yeah. Right.

Yeah, you're right.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (31:46.808)
Yeah.

Craig Canapari (31:58.509)
Get off your phone, time to go upstairs. And I don't really have to manage it anymore.

Time to go to bed. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So she, I'm usually leaving a room by like 8 45 or nine. Whereas before I would be sort of getting myself started into my routine around nine or nine between nine and nine 30. Now I feel like it's more my bedtime has been pushing later because of that. But I generally, I do watch TV in the evenings.

just to take my mind off the world. And then, no, not in the bedroom, but we do have one in the bedroom. And Kyle would love to have that on all night, but I cannot handle that on all night. That's outside. That's beside the...

in your bedroom.

Craig Canapari (32:43.149)
I mean, I feel like if you can't your fan and he can't have his TV, I mean, that seems fair.

Yeah, right. Exactly. Compromise. So I start to wind down now closer to 10. My phone does go on Do Not Disturb as early as eight. Just because all day long, I'm just attacked with.

you know, notifications and I just need to like calm the nervous system. So eight o'clock it goes on, do not disturb. I can still get notifications, but I have to actually touch my phone to be able to see them. And then at nine 15, it goes on to like bedtime mode where it's just like black and the only notifications that can come through are like my parents, my daughter, things like that. Yeah.

Have you set that up as like an automation or like a focus mode? Oh yeah, that's smart.

Yes, it's a focus. Yeah. So I have that. And then I like to either take a bath or a shower before bed every single night. And then I do like to try and read, even if it's like five pages. tried if it depends on how awake I am. Sometimes it's 20 pages, sometimes it's five pages. And then I do have my phone in my room with me, but that's because it's my alarm clock.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (34:00.748)
But again, it's on Do Not Disturb. It's on black. I don't want anything. Yeah. Yeah.

Hatch, you gotta send Arielle a alarm clock. Former employee. Employee of the month of August of 2016.

Yeah, right. 100 years ago. Yeah. So it's not like a very intense routine, but it's just, I mean, even when I'm away, you know, for work or something at a hotel, I like to take a shower or whatever before bed. just, aren't there some like,

Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (34:40.522)
biological factors that help, you know, that hot, a hot shower or hot bath can help with sleep.

So just like cortisol going down is a sleepiness signal, melatonin goes up, cortisol goes down, and body temperature starts to drop, right? So we like, we want a lower body temperature. helps us sleep. Actually, if you're really cold when you get into bed, your body's trying to hold on to the body temperature. Whereas if you take a warm shower or bath, then your body temperature will start to go down. And it's that change in direction.

Craig Canapari (35:15.639)
when your blood vessels dilate and it starts to cool your body off, that is also a sleep inducing signal. Likewise, that's why wearing socks at night can help you sleep because if your feet are warm, your body is less likely to kind of clamp down and try to hold onto heat. So.

Very cool.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (35:32.578)
Yeah, I can't do socks. I'm too hot. Too hot of a sleeper.

Yeah, no, I see I'm actually I've kind of come around and wearing the socks myself.

Well, maybe in 10 years I will want to wear socks. I don't know if you're 10 years older than me. You're a little bit older than me.

when you're this old.

Craig Canapari (35:53.933)
I'm 10 years older than you. So, let's see, I was gonna say in terms of my practices, you know, I'm doing a, I'm trying to do a meditation challenge through the New York Zen Center. So I'm trying to get my meditation in before bedtime. I have been a meditator for a very long time. I've tried a lot of different things. transcendental meditation for a couple of years. Now I'm kind of doing more of a Zen kind of thing.

Mmm.

Craig Canapari (36:23.085)
And doing it before bedtime is good. I set up the coffee in the morning before I go to bed. I always read before I go to bed, even if it's only a few pages. My cell phone's not in my room at night unless I'm on call. Never worked on it that. No, least it's my work phone and it's an iPhone.

Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (36:32.458)
arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (36:47.224)
Yeah.

Craig Canapari (36:51.415)
things do get a little bit muddy. And if I take off my phone off of sleep mode, it goes across both of them. So there's ways to kind of work around that. That's also why I like wearing the Apple watch at night. I have the lightest, smallest Apple watch and I wear a fabric thing. It's also a good alarm clock if you don't want to wake up your spouse. Now that I have a kid away in college, his calls or texts will come through to me. Although the...

Oh. Oh. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (37:05.838)
Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (37:16.29)
Hmm. Yeah.

When he went to college, he didn't quite do the math about when we would go to bed relative to him. Sometimes he would just call at like 1130 just to say hi. And I was like, are you in jail or is everything okay? But I'm still figuring out the technology, because our trainees and the hospital numbers I have programmed in its favorites, those will break through when it's on Do Not Disturb. And the watch is more likely to wake me up.

Ugh.

Yeah. Are you sick? Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (37:44.951)
Mmm, yeah.

than the phone especially in the other.

Oh, interesting. Yeah, you know, I'd probably be the same way, honestly, unless my phone was on like really loud or something, because I don't hear. Last night, my daughter woke up at 11 or didn't wake up. She hadn't fallen asleep like we were talking about. And I was dead asleep and she woke up at 10 or 11 and I or she called me at 11 and I didn't even hear her. So.

Kyle had to wake me up and say, hey, she's calling for you. So I probably would need that. Yeah, no. She wanted me. Sometimes it's only mom.

Kyle, you don't want to go take care of that yourself?

Craig Canapari (38:30.336)
Yeah, because sometimes you can watch her dance to their mom too.

Craig Canapari (38:37.454)
Yeah, let me tell you, my kids, it's been a long time since they've needed me at night. Though my older kid will sometimes amusingly sleepwalk in. And it's usually pretty funny because it can be hard to tell at first. I'm not going to embarrass him by the sort of weird stuff that he gets into.

Ugh.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (38:54.894)
You can be like, what are you doing? Yeah, right. What are you doing here? Yeah.

I'm pretending to vomit as a theme. He's like, I've got a good snick and he's like, and I'm like.

Oh, that's Oh, man, that's funny.

it's stuff.

So let's just talk about medication, supplements, anything like that.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (39:20.718)
Mmm, yeah. So for me, have like, gosh, I don't even know when I was originally diagnosed with insomnia. I think I may have been 17, 18, 19. And it was it was making me physically ill. I mean, it was like regular. I could fall asleep, but then I'd wake up in the middle of the night and I'd be up all night and then.

It was just a really bad cycle. So I don't think, well, I've been taking sleep medication for quite a long time. I tried all of the usual suspects like Ambien and stuff and Ambien, think Ambien, like that was awful. I gained like 20 pounds in like a week. It was just crazy. And then eventually somewhere I think in my

Sorry, like what? Okay.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (40:17.73)
late 20s, they prescribed me trazodone. So I've been taking that for years. And, you know, I try to come off of it sometimes and it just life gets in the way and then I get anxious and yeah, I know I'm not exactly the, you know, the picture of perfect sleep here, but it's just always been a struggle. And for me, it's more worth it for me to get a good night's sleep.

and be healthy than to try to wean myself off of it and be not good.

When I talk to my patients and their parents about sleep medications, like almost nobody wants to be on a sleep medication, right? Like, you know, in spite of what people think, very few people actually want to use medications. But the fact is some people do better on them than not. Trazadone has been around for a long time. It seems to increase your proportion of slow-wage sleep, which is relatively unique. It's not habit forming.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Craig Canapari (41:24.942)
Has your dose been stable for a long time?

Yeah, so like if that's the case, mean, sometimes some people seem to get tolerances pretty quickly to sleep medications and then cycle them. And I would say to anybody taking a sleep medication, and this is especially true for parents who, like, you've got to do the work of having good sleep hygiene. Like these pills aren't anesthesia. you can't, like I had a kid once.

Yeah, no.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (41:49.676)
Yeah. Right.

Craig Canapari (41:56.302)
I'll change the details, but he was a very, he was at a very high pressure private school. And he said to me, he's like, well, I finished my homework at midnight every night. So I need to fall asleep by 12 10 so I can get enough sleep. Even medication is going to do that. And I'm like, that's not how sleep medication works. It nudges you in the right direction, but you can't go full tilt on your calculus homework. And then fall asleep. you know, so like,

Mmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (42:08.671)
wow, yeah. Yeah.

No.

Right.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (42:21.912)
and then pass out. Yeah.

Medication is a tool just like lifestyle modifications are a tool. There's no moral dimension to this and trazodone is pretty safe, honestly The one side effect of note is a idiopathic one for men which can get priapism which is a painful erection that will not go away and maybe Yeah, it's probably not gonna be a concern for you

Well, thankfully I won't get that.

In my career, I've written a lot of trazodone scripts. It is often an awkward conversation to have with teenage boys and their parents. It's very rare, but I was sort of, I actually did a recent literature review on this trying to see if this is like, does this go away after you're on it for a while? Or I was honestly kind of like, do I have to keep talking about this? Cause it's always an awkward conversation. And it's like, well, this is still, this is still a thing and it doesn't go away with time. So there it is.

Mmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (43:11.106)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (43:22.392)
So then I would assume that you would stop using it if that happens, right?

Well, mean, the first thing is you have to go get medication to resolve the situation so you do not harm your penis. But then after that, I imagine after a situation like that, especially because I think those drugs are injectable. So after that occurs, I think for most people, they would want to move on to a different product. So, yeah.

Yeah. gosh. Okay.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (43:46.967)
arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (43:50.848)
Yeah, I would assume so. I would assume so.

But yeah, it's kind of kept me from wanting to try it myself. But no, but it is a good medication. It's off label in kids. Most things we do are required with a prescription. It's not a recommendation that anyone here try it, but you know, just to kind of talk about the medication that you're taking.

Yeah. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (44:17.27)
Yeah. And I do take magnesium glycinate, glycinate as well. and I started taking that actually my acupuncturist told me about it because I was, Ashley was getting older. I was still nursing and I was worried about my supply. And she said, try taking this magnesium every night. The first night, the first night I took it and I wasn't on trazodone at that time. I took some time off.

And I sure didn't eat it because I was exhausted. Yeah, I took some time off of it and I had the best sleep I'd had in forever that night. So I texted her and I said, hey, is this supposed to help with sleep too? And she's like, yeah, did you get good sleep? And I said, yes. And I know it's anecdotal at this point and the evidence is very limited, but it does seem to help.

when you were nursing her

Craig Canapari (45:08.066)
Yeah, no, honestly, I take magnesium too. And I used to take magentine, magnesium threonate And it's very expensive. So I tried magnesium glycinate. And we've talked on the podcast before about magnesium. So magnesium is very interesting. And it's kind of having a little bit of a moment in terms of sleep. So

Or I think it helps.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (45:31.79)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

When I looked on this, I was a little bit skeptical because honestly, there's not a lot of like clinical trials in kids or adults showing benefits. There are a few in adults. There's like one NICU study. But what's in there's theoretical reasons why it might be helpful. The first is, is if you look at the diet of the average Western diet, people are not getting enough magnesium in their diets. The second is actually

hard to measure total body magnesium because blood magnesium levels are regulated very closely in the body. Magnesium is critical for your heart rhythm, because it's really the contraction of muscles. So your body is going to keep that magnesium level tightly controlled even if you have less magnesium elsewhere in your body. And it's pretty safe unless you take a huge amount of it. I can only find one.

Mmm.

Craig Canapari (46:30.434)
death related to an overdose. And it had been like a couple of bottles of magnesium. So it's pretty safe. If you don't need it, your kidney is just going to pee it out. I think the main risk is taking it.

goodness.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (46:41.262)
That's what I was just going to say, don't you just pee it out?

I mean, look, the risks with supplements in general, and full disclosure, I'm gonna tell you, I take three supplements for sleep, is primarily related to, I mean, anything can have side effects, but also supplements in the US are regulated as food supplements and not medications, so the quality control is not good. I actually use a site called consumerlab.com.

which does third party testing on a lot of different products. It's a subscription, but it's like 60 bucks a year. And because people are always asking me about supplements in my job, I also like that resource. So I take the magnesium glycinate that they recommend. I also take some L-theanine. And if you think there's not a lot of data on magnesium, there's less for theanine. Theanine.

Mm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (47:23.011)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (47:35.566)
But I feel like that's out there right now too. Like it's having a moment.

Yeah.

So theanine is common in green tea and other foods. What interested me is because it doesn't make you drowsy, but it seems in very limited data, it seems to help with nighttime awakenings and it also helps with anxiety. So I tried this and honestly, I like, I have anxiety and it was helpful. I felt less anxious after taking it for a while and it did help with my nighttime awakenings. And...

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (47:56.481)
Interesting.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (48:05.516)
Yeah. Yeah.

Craig Canapari (48:11.342)
I also take little bit of melatonin and you know, honestly, I'm always preaching melatonin safety. It's a hormone. A lot of parents really don't, you know, using too much of it. I take a milligram, which is a very small dose and it clearly helps me fall asleep. Now there was an abstract that got a lot of press a couple of months ago looking at a relationship between taking melatonin

Hmm.

Craig Canapari (48:40.654)
an increased incidence of cardiovascular events and death. So there were some important limitations to this study. Let me just bring that up because I want to make sure I get these details right. But this was a conference abstract. It was not actually published. So yeah, I was looking at...

Craig Canapari (49:06.542)
Okay, it was a, was a, I'll put a link in the show notes, but it was published at, and they actually had an American Heart Association at a press release. was a long-term melatonin supplementation was to say with an 89 % higher risk of heart failure, a threefold, a threefold increase in heart failure related hospitalizations and a doubling of all cause mortality over five years, which sounds pretty scary, right? Like, I think,

Bye.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (49:33.942)
Yeah, it sure does.

Yeah, I think there's a couple problems with it. First of all, this was this is not relevant to children or teens. There was no data in this. This was older people. It was a mixture of I believe a mixture of other countries and melatonin in Europe is often prescription versus in the US it's a supplement. They didn't have data about dosing.

Bright, bright.

And the other thing is that insomnia itself is associated with hypertension, coronary artery disease, and heart failure. So, people don't just take melatonin, they take melatonin because they have insomnia. So they try to do some statistical stuff to cancel this out. But I think the jury's still out until they actually publish this to see if this is worth paying attention to.

Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (50:13.58)
Yeah, right. So how deep was their insomnia as well?

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (50:21.036)
Right. Yeah.

Craig Canapari (50:33.388)
And I'm not worried about this right now. Obviously, I'm still taking it. But the one thing I want to, and I use, I'll put the preparations I use in the show notes. Again, not a recommendation, but if people are interested. I use ones that have had the third party testing that makes it look pretty good. And with any of these things, you've got to make the calculus. Is my life better with this or without it? And I think the risk for supplements are, well, you know, like,

Do your research, is it something that's safe? Is it something that's not gonna interact with medications you're already taking? Because honestly, if you talk to your physician, you're taking a couple of medications, especially psych medications, people don't always disclose if they're taking supplements and there can be interactions.

Right.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (51:22.24)
Yeah, I think people sometimes think that it's like, you know, share the medications that you're on and they don't really think of those things as part of that.

Yeah, sure. Anything you think might have benefits might also have downsides. There's a lot of magical thinking these days about sort of wellness based interventions versus medicine. I think you have to think about them the same way. So, Arielle , let me ask you, 2026, how are you sleeping right now?

Yeah, right.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (51:46.668)
Yeah, yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (51:56.703)
fine. As long as my child doesn't wake me up, which isn't normal. That's not a normal situation, but I, you know, I think I've, I've had this routine for so long now.

have been sleeping well, so that's good.

I was looking at my Oura Ring data. My sleep was terrible in December because I had some work travel and it was the holidays. And my travel was screwy as well. My sleep's been pretty good lately. I find the key for me is stopping what I'm doing and starting to wind down by 10 o'clock at night. we should talk our schedules. So ideally, I'm in bed lights out by 1030, realistically is closer to 11. Weekdays, I've got to get up at 630. What's your schedule like?

Yep.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (52:26.808)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (52:32.387)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (52:41.87)
Yeah, not that far off from mine. Ideally, I'm in bed by 10 and I'm up, I'm usually up at 6.30 as well. My alarm clock goes off at 6.30 during the weekdays. I could sleep like I will keep sleeping on the weekends.

How long will you sleep in?

sometimes like nine or 10.

Yeah, that feels amazing. I, yeah, no, I, I find that like, you know, often if I'm lately, so I've been playing video games with the same group of guys since early two thousands. so lately we're, lately we're playing a new game called Arc Raiders and everybody is pretty excited about that. So I've been staying out later than I can. And the problem is you walk out to one of the gaming sessions and you're like kind of pumped.

Yeah, right.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (53:27.51)
wow.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (53:37.998)
Yeah.

Ideally, I want to be done with that by 10, which is usually like 10, 15. Yeah, yeah, I have some time to wind down. But yeah, I think when I was a resident, we used to play more and later in the night, but I was younger and more bulletproof.

Yeah, to give yourself time to wind down a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (53:52.629)
I can't even imagine.

Yeah.

Right?

So listen, that's all we've got about our sleep routines. I hope this was of interest to you. If you've got any questions, just shoot us an email or on social. Arielle , do you have anything you want to share this week that might be interesting to our listeners?

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (54:21.867)
No.

What's the email address that we have for this podcast?

No, all I have to share is that we're getting way too much snow and I'm over it. Our email, you can reach us at the sleep edit show at gmail.com.

True story, my Oura ring also showed that I spent four and a half hours shoveling because the plow guys plow broke on Sunday. my son said three and a half hours on Sunday and an hour on Monday. And my son's like, you're being so dramatic. And I'm like, this is just the number. I'm not complaining. But to be fair, I think you spent about 20 minutes out there. Oh.

no.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (55:03.926)
Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (55:10.176)
How much snow did you get?

Maybe 15 or 16 inches.

We were the jackpot city, we're not a city, town in Massachusetts, Sterling. So we got, at 6.30 in the morning on Monday, we had 22.2 inches and then it continued to snow all day. Yeah, yeah. So, and then it just, feel like it kept snowing and then every night we've been getting flurries and yeah, I live in what's called the Worcester Hills and we just get a lot of snow.

Damn!

wow, that's not-

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (55:45.741)
Duh!

Yeah, that's a lot of snow. Well, I was gonna say the only thing I want to share is I've been doing some vibe coding. I'm learning to build little web apps. So I built a I built a melatonin dose calculator for parents. And actually, I just built iron dosing calculator for rest psych syndrome. That's more for physicians. I'll throw the melatonin dosing calculator in the show notes. People want to check it out.

cool.

Craig Canapari (56:16.622)
Again, most kids shouldn't need melatonin, but I do find a lot of parents are using too much. So if that's interested of your provider, you wanna link to it, that would be great. I also made it open source for nonprofits on the webpage. I've got the GitHub as well. well, you know, I mean, it's not based on my data. So, we're gonna get through this together.

Mm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (56:34.68)
You're such a good person.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (56:39.566)
Sharing is caring. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

That's right.

So thanks for listening and we'll see you at the next podcast.

Craig Canapari (56:54.156)
Okay, I guess we'll just call this one and then we'll save the questions for the next one. I can record in a couple of weeks too.

Peace out.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (57:02.419)
Well, we could do a few of them, right? No?

You've got to be out at 5.30 though, and I'm worried we're not gonna be done. Don't you think it'll be weirder to splice together two?

Yeah, it will. what, when are you, what, yeah, but what, I wanted to do listener ones. What?

We got an episode on the can!

Craig Canapari (57:26.018)
Are you hosting book club?

No, it's at a restaurant.

Who fancy?

We always go out.

I mean, look, we can do this however we can do this however you want. I just sort of feel like knowing how we roll, we're not going to knock this down for you. What?

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (57:40.672)
Yeah, it's going to be weird if we cut it up, but how? Yeah, and I feel like we're, we are, I don't, I think it would be weird to splice it together like in two different things. When are you, when are you free?

We have to wear the same outfits.

Next week is no bueno because I am the sleep, I am the pulmonologist. The week, let me look at my schedule.

Did you say you had time on Sunday though? Or not anymore?

Sunday.

Craig Canapari (58:13.582)
Maybe... we have...

Craig Canapari (58:20.29)
The one thing I have to find out is we have my, my wife got me a cooking class at a restaurant, our favorite restaurant on Sunday. I just don't know what time it is. I think it's late afternoon, so I couldn't do it earlier on.

What about Friday?

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (58:27.193)
cool, very cool. that's fun.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (58:37.083)
you don't have time Friday, right?

on Friday I've got a makeup clinic.

Oh, that sucks. Yes. What time on Sunday?

Yeah, it does.

Craig Canapari (58:49.344)
I'd say if we did it like midday would be safe.

Ashley is soccer at four, so it takes a half an hour to get there. So whatever, anything before that.

Let's shoot for noon.

Okay, let's do it. Send me an invite. Yeah.

And then we'll have two in the can.

Craig Canapari (59:11.49)
Yeah, that makes sense. I've cast a new.

I think it's better to just get it done.

Yeah, I got to write just a little bit for an editorial I'm writing on Saturday. Jack shit gets done when I'm on service. yeah, yeah. So I just do that on Saturday. And yeah, like so my this is this is my week of punishment clinics for having for taking this love every trip. I to do a bunch of makeup clinics. So

Yeah, I would assume so.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (59:43.106)
Good.

Craig Canapari (59:49.006)
It's fine. It's like, we have such a long waiting list. I'm happy to like, it's actually good to, yeah, it's fine.

Yeah, you get stuff done. You don't get people who come with behavioral sleep problems, do you?

my God, yeah, I do. And I have so many now. So my clinics that are mixed, that are pulmonary and sleep, we hired a new pulmonologist. So now all my new patients are asleep. And the problem with a mixed clinic is the respiratory patients are faster. So like, yeah, I'll take a kid with moderate persistent asthma any day. I can knock on 20 minutes. But if I have like eight kids with autism who have never slept in their lives, in a day that like, it's just...

you do.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:00:13.39)
Mmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:00:19.565)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:00:23.777)
Yeah.

that's tough. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, neurotypical people. Do you have neurotypical children who are having behavioral sleep stuff?

But yeah, so.

yeah, no, I definitely do. we, I, the good Dr. Gray is back from maternity leave on the ninth. You know, she's been doing great and she's been out and I feel like in December, I've seen a lot of respiratory kids, but the last couple of weeks, I've seen a lot of patients and I was like, Ooh, you know, like setting to her.

yes, she had a second baby, right?

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:01:04.192)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I'm pretty certain that I'm not going to have a job, so I'm just trying to figure myself out.

Boom, boom, boom. I'm like, that schedule is going to be full. So.

Craig Canapari (01:01:17.474)
What's the word in the street?

Well, the RFP for the request for a proposal for the new national center, the forecast was archived. So it had been pushed back and pushed back and pushed back because of government shutdowns and things like that. And then the forecast had it, you know, it was coming out October 15th. proposals were due December 15th. Decision would be by March 31st.

and we missed all those deadlines and now the RFP is archived. no, not good at all. I hate it, but it's a job and I work from home and yeah. So yeah, I'm just trying to, I'm just kind of like throwing my resume out there at random things, but like hoping to, I want to figure out that I really,

that's not good.

But you don't like this job anyway.

Craig Canapari (01:02:05.624)
But it's a job. It's it's it's it's secure.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:02:21.196)
want to figure out our

the course and then I do want to consider like so I just had someone reach out to me yesterday they needed help and this isn't like the only person that's done this but this is the most recent she needed help she was completely stuck on this child and she just doesn't understand she didn't nobody understands 24 hour sleep needs they just don't get it and they they keep looking at these like

basic schedules where a child naps always naps at nine and one or you know, whatever and they need 90 minutes or whatever, but they're not looking at what the child's actually giving them. So this kid was waking up all night and skipping his naps and I was 17 month old. I looked, I ended up putting his data into my spreadsheet that has all sorts of formulas and

Kid gets 11 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period. You can't expect him to sleep seven to seven and take an hour and a half nap. So last night I told her what to do and they put him to bed. I told him to put him to bed at eight. They put him to bed at seven. I told her to tell them, put them to bed at eight. They put them to bed at seven 30 and he cried till eight, which is exactly right on the money for what I said as far as like when he would fall asleep.

and he slept right through to 5.30. He woke up because he had poop.

Craig Canapari (01:03:51.736)
So you know what, if you want, sometime we could easily build this into a web app for your own use.

That's what I was just thinking. have you, my spreadsheet is, I want to figure out, we should sit down and talk about that sometime because I have like a very, very elaborate spreadsheet that one of my, my very first coach that I hired was very adept at Excel. And she has all these formulas in there and it gives me like clear patterns and what kids.

You can honestly, we can build that in an hour. It's honestly, I like that the chatbots are great. The difference with Claude code, honestly, you don't need to know anything about coding, but you're like, here's, I created a GitHub account and I'm like, build this, here's what I want, build this. And it did it. And I'm like, okay, change this, do this, do that. That I would not make open source.

can give us.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:04:50.562)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:04:58.432)
No, no.

yeah, I mean like

But like this kid that I've been working with, he's an eight month old, he was waking all night long. He was completely supported with his naps and we figured out he's just lower in sleep needs. He's a 12 hour sleeper and he needs much more time awake in order to fall asleep because he can't give us more than that.

So it just completely defies the laws of wake windows because...

This would be cool. This would be very cool to,

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:05:36.632)
study.

Well, yeah, because I'm like, it's it's kind of simple. want you know what? I'm a little bit burnt out on

Research, doing research here is such a fucking nightmare. I can't even tell you. It's so difficult to get anything through the IRB, but like I have a couple of trainees. Now we're interested in sleep medicine. We can maybe get to do some of the annoying stuff, but cause like, or there's also some primary care doctors who do research here might be, you have to find the right partners, but.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:06:12.888)
Yeah.

Yeah, because I feel like if you if you actually create an algorithm, and then you know, then you can sell it to business.

Well, yeah, I mean, exactly. it gives us, all they have to do is plug in their child's sleep. And I like to have feedings in there just to make sure if there's a baby, make sure they're getting enough food during the day and we're not like missing something.

Well, it's funny. We're like.

We have this thing, they're like, apply for this, it's for clinicians, it's like a $20,000 grant or whatever. So we're kind of doing something a little bit upstream of this in that there was this thing that was made about 13 years ago called the Consensus Sleep Diary. It's like, basically they're like, here's what a sleep diary should be for treatment of insomnia in adults.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:07:02.381)
Mm-hmm.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:07:07.598)
Mm-hmm.

And it's pretty, it's pretty good actually, but it doesn't have things like naps in it or anything like that. So we're going to like try to build one in, if we get this grant in Epic. So that'll be like, it'll just remind people every day to fill this out. And honestly, it's just for us, our biggest pain point is we can't get the diaries back because you know, I think it's almost like if people were paying us out of pocket, they bring the fucking diaries.

Yeah. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:07:31.661)
Yeah.

Craig Canapari (01:07:37.378)
But like, if they're insurance paying it, it's like, I don't know what happened on the dog ate them. We never filled them out, whatever. Like, it's really weird. and there's actually a pretty good CBTI app. It's called CBTI coach from the VA. So like, it's like, it's a little bare bones, but it's a good, it's a good product, right? I think that's what Danielle uses for her, like 12 and up insomnia kids. And that gives you like,

Right. Yeah, they don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:07:48.718)
But this, yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:08:01.335)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:08:06.019)
Mm-hmm.

nice data it's like sleep latency time in bed like nighttime awakening

Yeah, yes. So I have that too. So I have when were they put down for sleep? When did they fall asleep? Because like, for instance, I have another 17 month old and they were trying to put him down for bed and every night he was crying for 30 minutes. I'm like, we need to put him to bed later. You're putting him to bed too early and he's crying for that time and he falls asleep around the same time every night. So we started doing that and it's he's asleep in like within less than 10 minutes now.

Yeah, just put it in the bed then.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:08:42.666)
It's the same thing happened with his nap. He was crying for like half an hour. I'm like, we need to put him to bed later. We need to put him down later. And the same thing happened. it's not rocket science. But it's just hard when you're tired. And you're not going to be looking at all these patterns in sleep. But I like to nerd out and look at it. then I find these, you know, the crazy thing is that.

Some kids are so consistent that like their sleep totals are exactly the same like multiple times a week like 13 hours and 51 minutes. Like some obscure number and it's the exact same number. It's not every night but it's like multiple nights a week and it just kind of blows me away how consistent they are.

Well, see, we build stuff like this and you're like this, get access. This is part of the membership community.

Yes. Well, so that's the thing. So I have this coach that I helped and she was like, I need you to teach me about 24 hour sleep. And I used a sleep log only for her to view. She couldn't access the formulas or anything. And that's how she was like, I that's how I explained everything for this client that was waking all the time and then slept through the night magically because I told her what to do.

And she's like, you need to teach me how to do this. I will pay you. I want to know how to do this. So.

Craig Canapari (01:10:05.9)
Yeah, no, it's like sleep physiology one on one. That's great. But it is funny because we don't, we do look a lot like sleep duration, but it's more for older kids. it's like, you know, if you're eight year olds got straight A student and they never fall asleep before 10, I mean, who gives a shit?

Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:10:19.935)
Yeah.

arielle greenleaf 1 01 28 2026 160517 (01:10:26.231)
Well, the problem is that parents are pre-programmed with these frickin' wake windows and they see them everywhere. And so they're like, well, I'm using this two hour, 100%, 100%. It's all about, well, I don't see that. I get it from my clients. But I mean, I do see it. just ignore.

Is that still the case? that still the case? Because that's not my algorithm, right?

Craig Canapari (01:10:44.844)
You're going, we're just going to stop the recording here.